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Reproduction Star Fox demo on stock Sega Genesis

Mar 7, 2013 at 2:36:11 PM
Guntz (115)
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Source:

http://www.romhacking.net/forum/i...

What's that SNES? I couldn't hear your Super FX over my stock Genesis.

Emulator:





Real hardware, overclocked:





Edited: 09/29/2016 at 03:46 PM by NintendoAge Moderator

Mar 7, 2013 at 2:53:51 PM
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Br81zad (93)
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Neat idea. But the lack of shoulder buttons on the controller limits you from making banked turns (or executing a barrel roll) while also being able to fire at the same time. I guess you could use a 6 button Genesis controller, but it would still be a lot of action for 1 thumb to handle, lol

It's cool that the hardware can handle it tho

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Edited: 03/07/2013 at 02:55 PM by Br81zad

Mar 7, 2013 at 3:02:01 PM
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Lets point out some things...

1. About 9fps. That's a littlle less than 2x slower than even the SNES version.

2. Background isn't paralaxed with rotation. Heck, it doesn't even have detailed ground because it can't do it. This could possibly be fixed by having a better programmer and uploading a new ground tile offset during vblank. Probably not enough time to do that, though.

3. Draw distance is about 5x less than SNES version of Starfox.

4. They have much more vblank time per frame as it's obvious they start rendering late and end it early. This also leads on that the Genesis obviously can not render a full screen to match the SNES vertical rendering, because they had to sacrifice so much screen for some reason.

Maybe when it gets more polished, but at this moment I'm very unimpressed myself. This isn't even close, really. It's neat and I applaud his efforts as even this is very complex in what it has to do, but it is not Starfox for sure.

If you did everything the original starfox did (paralax background, full draw distance, actual game engine behind rendering engine) I bet it'd top out at 2 FPS.


Edited: 03/07/2013 at 03:06 PM by removed04092017

Mar 7, 2013 at 3:11:15 PM
JosephLeo (83)
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It's not Starfox until you can do a barrel roll.

Very cool proof of concept but definitely not close enough to the real thing.

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Mar 7, 2013 at 3:37:20 PM
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how the hell did they do that without SFX?

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Mar 7, 2013 at 3:42:45 PM
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The same way SFX does it. Lots of number crunching and putting 3D vectors to a screen.

Mar 7, 2013 at 3:44:46 PM
Shiru (0)

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The same way as with SuperFX, apparently. Either way it is just some code that renders solid triangles, nothing more. Slower CPU - slower rendering. Still, I'm very impressed that someone actually did that with actual StarFox models, complete with animation.

Mar 7, 2013 at 6:50:27 PM
Gorillazero (51)
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3 Gen Games always makes me laugh, so knowledgeable

9fps does sound pretty rough

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Mar 7, 2013 at 7:30:38 PM
dra600n (287)
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Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Lets point out some things...

1. About 9fps. That's a littlle less than 2x slower than even the SNES version.

2. Background isn't paralaxed with rotation. Heck, it doesn't even have detailed ground because it can't do it. This could possibly be fixed by having a better programmer and uploading a new ground tile offset during vblank. Probably not enough time to do that, though.

3. Draw distance is about 5x less than SNES version of Starfox.

4. They have much more vblank time per frame as it's obvious they start rendering late and end it early. This also leads on that the Genesis obviously can not render a full screen to match the SNES vertical rendering, because they had to sacrifice so much screen for some reason.

Maybe when it gets more polished, but at this moment I'm very unimpressed myself. This isn't even close, really. It's neat and I applaud his efforts as even this is very complex in what it has to do, but it is not Starfox for sure.

If you did everything the original starfox did (paralax background, full draw distance, actual game engine behind rendering engine) I bet it'd top out at 2 FPS.

Dude, it's a fucking demo. Can't you ever post anything that isn't negative about someone elses work?

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Mar 7, 2013 at 8:15:33 PM
Guntz (115)
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Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Lets point out some things...

1. About 9fps. That's a littlle less than 2x slower than even the SNES version.

2. Background isn't paralaxed with rotation. Heck, it doesn't even have detailed ground because it can't do it. This could possibly be fixed by having a better programmer and uploading a new ground tile offset during vblank. Probably not enough time to do that, though.

3. Draw distance is about 5x less than SNES version of Starfox.

4. They have much more vblank time per frame as it's obvious they start rendering late and end it early. This also leads on that the Genesis obviously can not render a full screen to match the SNES vertical rendering, because they had to sacrifice so much screen for some reason.

Maybe when it gets more polished, but at this moment I'm very unimpressed myself. This isn't even close, really. It's neat and I applaud his efforts as even this is very complex in what it has to do, but it is not Starfox for sure.

If you did everything the original starfox did (paralax background, full draw distance, actual game engine behind rendering engine) I bet it'd top out at 2 FPS.

Except this demo is on a stock Genesis, no add-on chips at all. Let's see you make a Starfox demo running on a stock SNES, no SuperFX chip.

Mar 7, 2013 at 8:50:09 PM
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Why would we? The SNES is capable of expansion while the Genesis isn't...so isn't that a knock on the Genesis's capabilities? Sounds like it to me. I mean, really a stock genesis and snes are just boxes that do nothing except turn on an LED. The games ARE add ons, and so is the hardware in them. So produce a cart that can do that just as good, please.

Mar 7, 2013 at 8:54:39 PM
Guntz (115)
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Then what's the SVP? It's the Genesis equivalent to the SuperFX. The Genesis has tons of add-ons, stop spouting bullshit. It's perfectly fair to ask if the stock SNES can do Starfox, the Genesis can do it. It just goes to show the SNES is in fact weaker in some regards, despite the common consensus here.

Mar 7, 2013 at 8:56:11 PM
dra600n (287)
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Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Why would we? The SNES is capable of expansion while the Genesis isn't...so isn't that a knock on the Genesis's capabilities? Sounds like it to me. I mean, really a stock genesis and snes are just boxes that do nothing except turn on an LED. The games ARE add ons, and so is the hardware in them. So produce a cart that can do that just as good, please.
Of course it can. Hard Drivin' or Virtua Racing has expansion chips. Now, while those games aren't good, it still has additional hardware in the cart. Hell, the largest commercial game was 4 MB/32 mbit, Pier Solar added in hardware to expand that to 8MB/64mbit. As the Genesis development community grows, expect to see much more impressive feats.

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Mar 7, 2013 at 9:03:46 PM
Guntz (115)
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Originally posted by: dra600n

Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Why would we? The SNES is capable of expansion while the Genesis isn't...so isn't that a knock on the Genesis's capabilities? Sounds like it to me. I mean, really a stock genesis and snes are just boxes that do nothing except turn on an LED. The games ARE add ons, and so is the hardware in them. So produce a cart that can do that just as good, please.
Of course it can. Hard Drivin' or Virtua Racing has expansion chips. Now, while those games aren't good, it still has additional hardware in the cart. Hell, the largest commercial game was 4 MB/32 mbit, Pier Solar added in hardware to expand that to 8MB/64mbit. As the Genesis development community grows, expect to see much more impressive feats.

Hard and Race Drivin' were stock Genesis games. And no, the biggest retail Genesis game was Super Street Fighter II, it was 40Mbit. It was the only Genesis game to use the "Sega" mapper. Yeah it never had a real name.


Edited: 03/07/2013 at 09:09 PM by Guntz

Mar 7, 2013 at 9:10:14 PM
dra600n (287)
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Originally posted by: Guntz

Originally posted by: dra600n

Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Why would we? The SNES is capable of expansion while the Genesis isn't...so isn't that a knock on the Genesis's capabilities? Sounds like it to me. I mean, really a stock genesis and snes are just boxes that do nothing except turn on an LED. The games ARE add ons, and so is the hardware in them. So produce a cart that can do that just as good, please.
Of course it can. Hard Drivin' or Virtua Racing has expansion chips. Now, while those games aren't good, it still has additional hardware in the cart. Hell, the largest commercial game was 4 MB/32 mbit, Pier Solar added in hardware to expand that to 8MB/64mbit. As the Genesis development community grows, expect to see much more impressive feats.

Like hell it did. Hard and Race Drivin' were stock Genesis games! Good fucking grief... At least get the facts straight before you guys bash something.

And no, the biggest retail Genesis game was Super Street Fighter II, it was 40Mbit. It was the only Genesis game to use the "Sega" mapper. Yeah it never had a real name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virt...

Sega Virtual Processor. Maybe you should learn your shit first.



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Mar 7, 2013 at 9:10:48 PM
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In some reguards? Looks better, plays better, sounds better with a coprocessor. So I think that goes to show, when rivaled with the same processing power, the genesis can only with with top notch programmers....which only Nintendo had, really. Still, okay it has it, but it was used in a few games.

Plus, their coproccesor was only used in one game. SFX was fully utilized and was used in quality games. So without more games, we don't know what it could REALLY do in the real world as other games would have pushed it better. But whatever, you can have your genesis stuff...just don't spread the garbage it's better than anything than the processor, as it definitely is NOT.

And it's not about the size, it's what the mapper has. A few NES mappers easily go up to 32mbit, so it's not the number that matters, it's about the extra. and what else it offers for the game to use.


Edited: 03/07/2013 at 09:16 PM by removed04092017

Mar 7, 2013 at 9:12:17 PM
dra600n (287)
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I wouldn't really call Doom or Dirt Tracks FX quality

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Mar 7, 2013 at 9:33:10 PM
TrekkiesUnite118 (1)

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Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Lets point out some things...

1. About 9fps. That's a littlle less than 2x slower than even the SNES version.

2. Background isn't paralaxed with rotation. Heck, it doesn't even have detailed ground because it can't do it. This could possibly be fixed by having a better programmer and uploading a new ground tile offset during vblank. Probably not enough time to do that, though.

3. Draw distance is about 5x less than SNES version of Starfox.

4. They have much more vblank time per frame as it's obvious they start rendering late and end it early. This also leads on that the Genesis obviously can not render a full screen to match the SNES vertical rendering, because they had to sacrifice so much screen for some reason.

Maybe when it gets more polished, but at this moment I'm very unimpressed myself. This isn't even close, really. It's neat and I applaud his efforts as even this is very complex in what it has to do, but it is not Starfox for sure.

If you did everything the original starfox did (paralax background, full draw distance, actual game engine behind rendering engine) I bet it'd top out at 2 FPS.
I saw this and figured I'd reply.

1. Doesn't Starfox on a real SNES run at around 10fps? Yeah maybe if there's absolutely nothing else on screen but the arwing you might get 15fps, but it's still rather slow and choppy. I suggest you stop playing it with ZSNES.

2. What on earth are you talking about? All the background is on the SNES version is a flat Mode 7 background that tilts. There's no parallax whatsoever. As for the ground detail, do you mean the 10ish white dots that scroll to give the illusion of movement over the static background?

3. If you say so. Looks about the same to me.

4. The SNES game doesn't render in full screen either. It runs in a window that's roughly 224x190.

As for the Genesis not being able to do expansions, it actually has a lot of pins on the cart port for expansion, including audio expansion. The 32X actually uses those as well as the NeoMyth flash cart to add Master System FM Synth compatibility. The only thing missing that would be nice to have is CRAM expansion, which is there on the VDP, the pins just aren't connected to anything.

And Hard Drivin' doesn't use the SVP chip, only Virtua Racing uses it. But we do see from just that game it's more powerful than at least the first Super FX chip. Not only does VR push more polygons than most Super FX games, it also does it at a higher frame rate. Spec wise its about on par with the Super FX 2 chip if I remember correctly.

It's not really garbage to say the SNES and Genesis are about on par with each other. Sound is highly debatable. Graphics balance each other out with the SNES allowing for more colors and blending modes where as the Genesis provides more sprites and animation. Yes, the SNES does have a higher sprite limit but there's a big difference between just displaying a sprite and actually doing something with it. And that's where the SNES runs into trouble and the Genesis comes out on top. This is why you don't see games like Gunstar Heroes or Alien Soldier on the SNES.



Edited: 03/07/2013 at 09:33 PM by TrekkiesUnite118

Mar 7, 2013 at 9:43:07 PM
Guntz (115)
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Originally posted by: dra600n

Originally posted by: Guntz

Originally posted by: dra600n

Originally posted by: 3GenGames

Why would we? The SNES is capable of expansion while the Genesis isn't...so isn't that a knock on the Genesis's capabilities? Sounds like it to me. I mean, really a stock genesis and snes are just boxes that do nothing except turn on an LED. The games ARE add ons, and so is the hardware in them. So produce a cart that can do that just as good, please.
Of course it can. Hard Drivin' or Virtua Racing has expansion chips. Now, while those games aren't good, it still has additional hardware in the cart. Hell, the largest commercial game was 4 MB/32 mbit, Pier Solar added in hardware to expand that to 8MB/64mbit. As the Genesis development community grows, expect to see much more impressive feats.

Like hell it did. Hard and Race Drivin' were stock Genesis games! Good fucking grief... At least get the facts straight before you guys bash something.

And no, the biggest retail Genesis game was Super Street Fighter II, it was 40Mbit. It was the only Genesis game to use the "Sega" mapper. Yeah it never had a real name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtua_Racing#Home_console_vers...

Sega Virtual Processor. Maybe you should learn your shit first.

 

What did that accomplish exactly? The SVP was used by one game, Virtua Racing. No other Genesis game used it. The SVP is the only on-cartridge co-processor for Genesis.

Maybe you should learn your shit first, dur hur.

Originally posted by: 3GenGames

In some reguards? Looks better, plays better, sounds better with a coprocessor. So I think that goes to show, when rivaled with the same processing power, the genesis can only with with top notch programmers....which only Nintendo had, really. Still, okay it has it, but it was used in a few games.

Plus, their coproccesor was only used in one game. SFX was fully utilized and was used in quality games. So without more games, we don't know what it could REALLY do in the real world as other games would have pushed it better. But whatever, you can have your genesis stuff...just don't spread the garbage it's better than anything than the processor, as it definitely is NOT.

And it's not about the size, it's what the mapper has. A few NES mappers easily go up to 32mbit, so it's not the number that matters, it's about the extra. and what else it offers for the game to use.

... Do you not understand the definition of "stock"? It means the base hardware, no add-ons whatsoever. The Genesis can do Starfox without any extra hardware, just a ROM chip on a Genesis cartridge. I asked if the SNES can do the same thing. Starfox without any extra co-processors. Since the SNES cannot do that, then clearly the SNES is in fact weaker than the Genesis in that regard.

How is this concept so hard to understand? Or are the rumors true that SNES fans can't comprehend logic?

And read trekkies' reply, perfect reply to all your bullshit.

Mar 7, 2013 at 9:47:02 PM
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well, it's cool to see it

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Mar 7, 2013 at 9:57:52 PM
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Originally posted by: NiO

well, it's cool to see it
Indeed it is. That romhacking thread is full lots of neat information, I do hope the developer keeps going with this project.

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Mar 7, 2013 at 9:58:10 PM
Laseki (70)
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Maybe you should head over to segaage Guntz, seems like all you is knock on the snes and go on about the genesis.
I doubt anyone here gives a shit about how good you think the thing is, no matter how many times you state your opinion about it.
As for the starfox thing, definitely cool to see, but the snes already did this 19 years ago, so holding this over the snes looks pretty silly to me.

Mar 7, 2013 at 10:01:51 PM
TrekkiesUnite118 (1)

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Originally posted by: Laseki

Maybe you should head over to segaage Guntz, seems like all you is knock on the snes and go on about the genesis.
I doubt anyone here gives a shit about how good you think the thing is, no matter how many times you state your opinion about it.
As for the starfox thing, definitely cool to see, but the snes already did this 19 years ago, so holding this over the snes looks pretty silly to me.


Well if you are going to play that game, the Genesis did this 3 years before the SNES did Starfox:







Edited: 03/07/2013 at 10:02 PM by TrekkiesUnite118

Mar 7, 2013 at 10:05:29 PM
Thunderblaze16 (75)
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ho oh....do I detect a SNES VS SEGA match?


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Mar 7, 2013 at 10:08:54 PM
Guntz (115)
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Originally posted by: Laseki

Maybe you should head over to segaage Guntz, seems like all you is knock on the snes and go on about the genesis.
I doubt anyone here gives a shit about how good you think the thing is, no matter how many times you state your opinion about it.
As for the starfox thing, definitely cool to see, but the snes already did this 19 years ago, so holding this over the snes looks pretty silly to me.

I happen to like the SNES, just as much as the Genesis. I just hate it when people here illogically bash the Genesis with childish grudges.

Yeah it's pretty obvious few people here will ever try something that doesn't have Nintendo branded on it. I've gathered that much from being here.