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Homebrew Why is SNES homebrew not as popular as NES homebrew?

Jun 1, 2016 at 2:23:34 PM
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GradualGames (39)
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(Derek Andrews) < El Ripper >
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Originally posted by: Mega Mario Man

SNES sux is a long running joke. Do an NA search for it and you will see. It's all good.
Haha! Shows how much time I spend outside the Brewery!  

 

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Jun 1, 2016 at 3:23:44 PM
bunnyboy (81)
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Originally posted by: Ramsis

Funny how all you die-hard NES fanboys out there are in constant need of bashing the SNES (or whatever other console you might have it in for). Honestly, it's hilarious.  

For the record, I myself am a die-hard SNES fanboy. Still, I've never felt the urge to have a go at any other consoles. And why on Earth would I? I'm glad they exist. All of them. I've enjoyed playing games on them in the past. I have no reason to talk shit about any one of them. Not even for the purpose of teasing. (Maybe that's because I didn't get that whole '90s Console Wars thing in the first place, i.e. back in 1992). And you know what: I'm goddamn glad that I never ever have since then. Because the only thing it ever did was make pros look like idiots all along (if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you've missed the '90s European video game magazines).

@bunnyboy, I'm shaking my maned head, seriously. You're a pro, right? So instead of unintentionally coming across like an idiot ... why not contribute some pro stuff to this thread? Just sayin'.  

Its the running joke, I say everything but NES sux.  But mostly sega because sega super sux!  I never cared about the console wars, and don't care about it now.  It is in no way serious bashing.  Only feeble minds would be influenced by it.

Some of these might be out of date, its been years since I looked at any SNES dev.  I won't do more because (in no particular order):

1 - No nostalgia.  By then I had moved onto computers.
2 - APU complexity.  Audio is already a problem for me, and needing to learn another processor just to do it is an immediate rejection.  Even making simple beeps is complex.  One of my NES games has all the audio in ~12 instructions which isn't possible on SNES.
3 - Similar to audio, the graphics level needed is far beyond my skills.  Limited graphics is ok on NES, not on SNES.
4 - Smaller market for cart sales.  Like Derek said the motivation shouldn't just be money, but see #1.
5 - PPU complexity.  I can completely understand all the registers/timing/mode/edge cases (bugs) for NES, but can't for SNES.  
6 - Bad tutorials.  SNES ones are mostly big blocks of code, or only cover a small section.  
7 - Bad debuggers.  Whatever bsnes was called at the time was a huge mess, snes9xdebug was missing important features.
8 - Bad audio tools.  I can't point a musician towards a famitracker type tool.
9 - Bad graphics tools.  I can't point an artist towards a nesst type tool.
10 - Variability of hardware revisions.  I already got hit by this.
11 - #snesdev is dead.
12 - Placeholder for things I haven't thought of.

SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.  Unfortunately that work is not SNES programming, so nobody wants to do it.  NES tools/tutorials/support from 10-15 years ago are far beyond where SNES is now.  If I was going to do a higher level system, the availability of tools and personal interest would make me look at GBA.  

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:39:52 PM
Ramsis (0)
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Originally posted by: bunnyboy
Its the running joke, I say everything but NES sux.  But mostly sega because sega super sux!  I never cared about the console wars, and don't care about it now.  It is in no way serious bashing.  Only feeble minds would be influenced by it.
Sorry for being honest on this one, but your arrogance is absolutely mind-boggling.

Originally posted by: bunnyboy
SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.
Yeah. No one around to actually care and redo your COMPLETELY USABLE (yet still broken) SNES PowerPak firmware.

Thanks, RetroUSB. Never gonna buy from you again.


Edited: 06/01/2016 at 03:41 PM by Ramsis

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:41:16 PM
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GradualGames (39)
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(Derek Andrews) < El Ripper >
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Man ramsis you really got a bug up your butt. I didn't see any arrogance in bunnyboy's remarks. Plus, I use the snes powerpak daily to play a fan translation of FFV with my wife, have had no problems with it.

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Jun 1, 2016 at 3:49:39 PM
Jerbilly (62)
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That's okay, he ignored all of the pertinent parts of bunnyboy's post after challenging him to offer some pro stuff in here. Rather humorous, this.

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:52:01 PM
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behemos (125)
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First elitists... now pros. Man, I'm starting to feel really left out. Anyone have a group I can join?

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:52:17 PM
Great Hierophant (1)
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The fans of the third generation are heavily concentrated in the NES. Sure there are smaller groups of Atari 7800 and Sega Master System fans, but the big money is in the NES.

The fourth generation is much more evenly split between Genesis and SNES, and the Genesis is much easier to program for, has the better tools and is essentially off-the-shelf outside the graphics processor. There are also communities for the Atari Jaguar, Neo Geo and the PC Engine/Turbo Grafx. At some point, the limitations of the console's hardware usually persuades most developers they can do it better on a modern system. The simple homebrew games that you see on the NES are not going to fly on the 16-bit systems. The novelty of something new on a cartridge wears awfully thin when you may not be getting a game on par with a good game from the era. I haven't really seen any fourth generation homebrew, other than perhaps Pier Solar, which could really have stood out from the crowded market back in the day.

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:55:55 PM
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mattbep (107)
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Yikes ram-bone. Take it easy man.

Luckily I plan on buying WAY more stuff from retroUSB going forward, so he should be ok financially.

Oh, and I think you need to re-read his post. You took it completely wrong. 


Edited: 06/01/2016 at 03:58 PM by mattbep

Jun 1, 2016 at 3:58:14 PM
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GradualGames (39)
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(Derek Andrews) < El Ripper >
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This guy reminds me of alp who quit NA. Everyone saying happy, nice things, (or harmless jabs) with smiles on their faces, even directing compliments towards ramsis who deserves it for beginning to build a really nice SNES game, and he's acting like everyone's against him. Nobody's against him. Nobody was against alp. Everyone liked alp and his game. Alp hated everybody. Makes no sense. I called him out on it and alp threatened to draw me on a penis in his game. I still like alp and would be honored if I appeared on a penis in his game. Didn't help. He still hates me. Maybe some people can't stand it that others don't hate them and refuse to. Haha!

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Creators of: Nomolos: Storming the CATsle, and The Legends of Owlia.


Edited: 06/01/2016 at 04:00 PM by GradualGames

Jun 1, 2016 at 4:05:49 PM
SoleGooseProductions (120)
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Back on topic, I'm very excited for the day that SNES homebrew takes off. I started learning NES with the goal of moving on to the SNES, but for now I'll have to content myself with 8 bits of power. The more that I have worked with it, though, the more I do appreciate the limitations of the system. Graphics influence gameplay, which influences music, which influences graphics, and round and round we go. That is not going to stop me from using SNES controllers of course  . RPGs need more buttons!

Anyways, Ramsis, you're doing cool work, keep at it. I always enjoy your updates, and until someone makes a great homebrew for the SNES and leads the way, there is not much hope for many of us. The "SNES sux" thing is just a joke. Usually it is pulled out when people start asking for the Super AVS, as a way of deflecting the question in a fun way.

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Jun 1, 2016 at 4:15:27 PM
bunnyboy (81)
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Originally posted by: Ramsis
 
Originally posted by: bunnyboy
Its the running joke, I say everything but NES sux.  But mostly sega because sega super sux!  I never cared about the console wars, and don't care about it now.  It is in no way serious bashing.  Only feeble minds would be influenced by it.
Sorry for being honest on this one, but your arrogance is absolutely mind-boggling.
And I am being honest, I really don't understand what is arrogant in any of that.  I don't think its a translation problem?  Where did I say I was better or right?  

 
Originally posted by: Ramsis
 
Originally posted by: bunnyboy
SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.
Yeah. No one around to actually care and redo your COMPLETELY USABLE (yet still broken) SNES PowerPak firmware.
But that is exactly my point.  You are clearly one of the top SNES programmers, and the firmware work is amazing, but it does nothing to help make SNES programming accessible to future homebrewers.  The work needed (mosty content creation tools and tutorials) is not SNES programming, which means people who know SNES programming aren't motivated to do the work.  Same reason my old tutorials are still (sadly) among the best.  There are many FAR better NES programmers, and better teachers, but they all want to work on NES games instead of writing about what is now basic to them.  Tutorials could be sooooo much better but everyone (including me) would rather do their own projects.

Jun 1, 2016 at 4:18:06 PM
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KHAN Games (88)
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Ramsis, if English isn't your first language, please know that you're reading the inflection in bunny's posts completely wrong.

Actually, even if English IS your first language, you're reading his posts all wrong.

I know him personally. And have known him for years. He is 90% sarcastic in everything he says. He has said "sega sux" for years, as a joke. That has mostly moved on to every non-NES console, again, because it's a running joke and it's funny. It's not serious.

And to bash his product and then rant you're never going to buy from him again is pretty childish, honestly. If it's completely broken, as you claim, why not post what is wrong with it and offer suggestions on how to fix it?

Everyone in this thread is super laid back (unless you start talking politics... don't get me started with Derek  ) Just take a step back and realize no one is attacking or bashing the SNES. And no one is bashing or attacking you. Take a deep breath and try to have a conversation with us.

Jun 1, 2016 at 4:28:16 PM
bunnyboy (81)
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Originally posted by: KHAN Games

He has said "sega sux" for years, as a joke. That has mostly moved on to every non-NES console, again, because it's a running joke and it's funny. It's not serious.
I had to look this up, almost the 6 year anniversary!  http://nintendoage.com/forum/mess...

Can only find snes sux going back 2 years.  I need to do a contest like that again.  http://nintendoage.com/forum/mess...

Jun 1, 2016 at 4:29:19 PM
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GradualGames (39)
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Originally posted by: KHAN Games

 (unless you start talking politics... don't get me started with Derek  
SSSSHHHHH!!!!!! NA is my safe space    When I'm here, I'm a harmless little turtle with no incendiary opinions on anything.

 

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Edited: 06/01/2016 at 04:31 PM by GradualGames

Jun 1, 2016 at 4:30:28 PM
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cirellio (47)
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I, for one, can't wait until the SNES homebrew scene really takes off and we start seeing more SNES RPGs. Sadly that's a long way off, but it's people like you Ramsis that are leading the way!

Being a pioneer probably sucks and probably isn't appreciated enough (because so few of us have any idea what kind of knowledge is required to do what you do), so all we can do is offer our support and say things like, "Looking great so far!". ---

You're operating on a different level, sir, and you should be proud of that.

Please don't melt down here and disappear, especially since I agree with the folks above that you've misread the situation and tone of this entire thread. Your reactions are unfounded, and I think I speak for us all when I say we wish you the best.

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Edited: 06/01/2016 at 04:31 PM by cirellio

Jun 1, 2016 at 6:54:36 PM
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Originally posted by: GradualGames

This guy reminds me of alp who quit NA. Everyone saying happy, nice things, (or harmless jabs) with smiles on their faces, even directing compliments towards ramsis who deserves it for beginning to build a really nice SNES game, and he's acting like everyone's against him. Nobody's against him. Nobody was against alp. Everyone liked alp and his game. Alp hated everybody. Makes no sense. I called him out on it and alp threatened to draw me on a penis in his game. I still like alp and would be honored if I appeared on a penis in his game. Didn't help. He still hates me. Maybe some people can't stand it that others don't hate them and refuse to. Haha!

That's a shame.  You would have made a great penis.  ;-)


 

Jun 1, 2016 at 8:16:33 PM
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GradualGames (39)
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LOL! Man, that picture is frighteningly accurate. I even have a keyboard instrument which looks roughly like that. It's basically just a box with keys on it.

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Jun 1, 2016 at 8:26:27 PM
bunnyboy (81)
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Miracle Piano 2 is your next project!

Jun 1, 2016 at 9:14:48 PM
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K3VBOT (279)
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I have a Snes game
Maybe 2
No more than 3

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Jun 2, 2016 at 1:05:00 AM
DarkKobold (10)
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Originally posted by: bunnyboy


SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.  Unfortunately that work is not SNES programming, so nobody wants to do it.  NES tools/tutorials/support from 10-15 years ago are far beyond where SNES is now.  If I was going to do a higher level system, the availability of tools and personal interest would make me look at GBA.  

So, the NES was 6 years before the SNES, yet the tools are 10-15 years behind, if I'm reading right. Why have the pros not made SNES widely accesible?

Or, maybe the reverse question, why was the NES given so much love?

I could see a C compiler with a strong library of audio and sprite/graphic functions really encouraging devs. Add in a famitracker and sprite editor, and you could see great homebrews. So, why did the NES get this love, and not the SNES? Is there some piece of the puzzle missing?

 

Jun 2, 2016 at 1:19:58 AM
guillavoie (124)
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Originally posted by: Ramsis

Originally posted by: bunnyboy
Its the running joke, I say everything but NES sux.  But mostly sega because sega super sux!  I never cared about the console wars, and don't care about it now.  It is in no way serious bashing.  Only feeble minds would be influenced by it.
Sorry for being honest on this one, but your arrogance is absolutely mind-boggling.
Originally posted by: bunnyboy
SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.
Yeah. No one around to actually care and redo your COMPLETELY USABLE (yet still broken) SNES PowerPak firmware.

Thanks, RetroUSB. Never gonna buy from you again.

That's in these precious moments that we all dearly miss the Pick a D**k Friday from Battymo.

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Edited: 06/02/2016 at 01:20 AM by guillavoie

Jun 2, 2016 at 2:04:17 AM
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I could see a C compiler with a strong library of audio and sprite/graphic functions really encouraging devs. Add in a famitracker and sprite editor, and you could see great homebrews. So, why did the NES get this love, and not the SNES? Is there some piece of the puzzle missing?

 
There is 2-3 C compilers (tcc-816, snesc, and the elusive WDCTools), there is a strong-ish library (PVSnesLib), there is all-in-one game-targeted music editor (SNESGSS), and dedicated sprite editor is totally not needed on platforms of Genesis/SNES power (any general purpose editors works just fine). Some tools are missing, though, such as map editors, but that's like on the NES, one has to do them by himself, for his specific game.

Pieces of puzzle were all mention above. Complexity, underdevelopment, popularity smear, etc. It is not just one single reason.

Jun 2, 2016 at 2:28:11 AM
bunnyboy (81)
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Originally posted by: DarkKobold

Or, maybe the reverse question, why was the NES given so much love?
Simpler system means the tools are simpler to create, so they can be done by less experienced programmers or finished in less time.  When there is just one graphics mode (NES) the graphics tools are easier to write than when there are many modes with different color rules and resolutions (SNES).  100 different NES emulators means the chance one will have a good debugger is higher than if there are just 3 emulators.  It is also momentum in the tool creation.  If everything is needed, nothing gets done.  But if one part is good (graphics creation) then another part (audio creation) is likely to follow.

Jun 2, 2016 at 9:56:31 AM
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Originally posted by: bunnyboy

Originally posted by: DarkKobold

Or, maybe the reverse question, why was the NES given so much love?
Simpler system means the tools are simpler to create, so they can be done by less experienced programmers or finished in less time...

Many of us are also learning how to program while learning how to program the NES. It is hard enough to learn to code, but it is equally difficult to design a decent game. Keeping things simple is a big help in this.


Originally posted by: DarkKobold

Originally posted by: bunnyboy


SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.  Unfortunately that work is not SNES programming, so nobody wants to do it.  NES tools/tutorials/support from 10-15 years ago are far beyond where SNES is now.  If I was going to do a higher level system, the availability of tools and personal interest would make me look at GBA.  

So, the NES was 6 years before the SNES, yet the tools are 10-15 years behind, if I'm reading right. Why have the pros not made SNES widely accesible?

...

 

Who are the "pros" when it comes to the SNES? Hard to lead when they're in the shadows, if they are around at all. Other than Ramsis, Shiru, and Watermelon, there aren't many games or projects that spearhead interest in the community. Hopefully that changes with time. With the NES, though, there were quite a few early projects before the Nerdy Nights that kind of showed people that they could learn if they applied themselves, particularly when those people had zero programming experience beforehand.

Like Bunny said, the temptation to switch to the GBA instead of the SNES is rather high. Tutorials have been around for years (though they do not dive in the same way as the NN), it can be done in a higher level language, the tools are there, there was once an active community, etc. Any time that I play with the idea of SNES development, it usually leads to the GBA. That could just be me though.


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Jun 2, 2016 at 10:07:27 AM
Mega Mario Man (58)
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I never had an SNES growing up. By the time we got an NES, the SNES was already released. So, I really have no attachment to the system. I also only have a few games for it and have never really played them.

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